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LTD is a fraud!

Last post 02-14-2008, 11:31 PM by Otaku. 9 replies.
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  •  01-29-2008, 5:13 PM 2453576

    LTD is a fraud!

    Here's a story idea for you - but I'm sure it's much bigger than kmtr would like to get involved in: LTD, by which I mean the entire bus system, is a fraud. How so? They have always portrayed themselves, and sold the concept to the city/public, as a mass-transit system. This just isn't true: What LTD is, is a 'transport of last resort'. Anybody who has alternatives to riding the bus, uses them. If you can't afford a car, or can't drive, (due to disability, or lack of age), and can't catch a ride with anyone, then, and only then, do you ride the bus. (Yeah, I'm sure there are your usual 4% of eco-zealots that ride tho they don't have to). What's the difference - mass transit or transport of last resort?? Mass transit emphasizes speed and volume. Hence the 'bus lanes' and giant accordian buses. Both very spendy. 'Transport of last resort' would emphasize flexabilty and convenience, NOT speed. Probably thru mini-buses, house to destination - like a city supported taxi service. Not as fast as a taxi, but a lot cheaper.  By using a 'mass transit' model to fill a 'transport of last resort' need, you do a lousy job of it, and you spend WAY more money then you need to.
  •  01-31-2008, 10:28 AM 2464990 in reply to 2453576

    Re: LTD is a fraud!

    As Lee Corso would say, "not so fast!"  It would be interesting to know where your data comes from to support your assertion that only transit dependent people use the LTD.  LTD, and other transit districts, survey riders to discover a lot of valuable information.  One question is targeted to this very subject.  In LTD's most recent rider survey the number who are fully transit dependent is 40 percent.  16 percent stated they have shared availability of a car and 47 percent stated that they had a car available for the trip they were making that day on the bus.  This statistical data seems to contradict the small percentage you attribute to those who are only concerned about the environment. 

  •  01-31-2008, 5:21 PM 2467969 in reply to 2453576

    Re: LTD is a fraud!

    redcity8:
    (Yeah, I'm sure there are your usual 4% of eco-zealots that ride tho they don't have to).


    Eco-zealots? You are ignorant. Sorry for trying to keep the air you breath a little cleaner. I have a car, and I admit I drive it a lot due to time constraints of getting to work at a certain time. When my schedule was different, I took the bus every day. Not because I had to, but I wanted to:
    A: Save some money
    B: Not creat so much pollution, and
    C: Not suppor the oil industry

    I hope you aren't one of those people that spits out a new kid every year or 2, because with the way you think, this world is gonna suck.

    People that take the bus pay the same ammount of taxes to help keep the roads in good shape as the idiots that drive around in big trucks and SUVs that do most of the damage to the road. Go move to Texas or something.
  •  01-31-2008, 5:45 PM 2468094 in reply to 2467969

    Re: LTD is a fraud!

    Gooombay:
    redcity8:
    (Yeah, I'm sure there are your usual 4% of eco-zealots that ride tho they don't have to).


    Eco-zealots? You are ignorant. Sorry for trying to keep the air you breath a little cleaner. I have a car, and I admit I drive it a lot due to time constraints of getting to work at a certain time. When my schedule was different, I took the bus every day. Not because I had to, but I wanted to:
    A: Save some money
    B: Not creat so much pollution, and
    C: Not suppor the oil industry

    I hope you aren't one of those people that spits out a new kid every year or 2, because with the way you think, this world is gonna suck.

    People that take the bus pay the same ammount of taxes to help keep the roads in good shape as the idiots that drive around in big trucks and SUVs that do most of the damage to the road. Go move to Texas or something.

    .

    .

    .Sorry Gooombay, but since you say you drive your car a lot, due to work/time constraints, then you don't qualify as an eco-zealot. To qualify, one would have to organize his/her entire life around the idea of  'saving the environment'.

     Oh, I believe that street repair funds come from gasoline taxes - so the guy with the gas guzzler is paying a lot more then someone who rides the bus. Which, of course, doesn't make wasting gas the smart thing to do.

  •  01-31-2008, 5:54 PM 2468134 in reply to 2468094

    Re: LTD is a fraud!

    So it is bad to organize your life around helping the environment? My wife rides her bike almost everywhere she goes, even though she has access to a car. I wouldn't call her a zealot.

    You may be right about gasoline taxes, but I bet that some normal tax money also goes to road repairs.

    I just don't understand why you think public transportation is a fraud, makes no sense to me. I have lived on both coasts, and LTD is one of the better public transportation services I have ever used.
  •  01-31-2008, 7:00 PM 2468382 in reply to 2464990

    Re: LTD is a fraud!

    ADuck51:

    As Lee Corso would say, "not so fast!"  It would be interesting to know where your data comes from to support your assertion that only transit dependent people use the LTD.  LTD, and other transit districts, survey riders to discover a lot of valuable information.  One question is targeted to this very subject.  In LTD's most recent rider survey the number who are fully transit dependent is 40 percent.  16 percent stated they have shared availability of a car and 47 percent stated that they had a car available for the trip they were making that day on the bus.  This statistical data seems to contradict the small percentage you attribute to those who are only concerned about the environment. 

    .

    .Hey, I just noticed I got two new people to sign up for this forum! Congrats me!  Anyway, I did not mean to imply that my figures were accurate, just the idea. Concerning your referenced survey, as they say, 'the devil is in the details', but I won't attempt to dispute your figures. Now, by YOUR figures, my idea is at least 40% accurate, that is, at least 40% of LTD riders use it as  'transportation of last resort', not as 'mass transit'. This means that, given an alternative, LTD loses as much as 40% of its ridership. Here's two questions: Does LTD make a significant difference in traffic? Meaning do they absorb at least 20% of possible commuters? And question two: Is there any hope of LTD doubling their ridership? Ever?   I'd say NO on both questions. And that is because there are not that many people who will ride the bus if they don't have to. Bottom line, LTD will never reach it's goal of being a significant 'mass transit system'. No matter how much money is spent on new buses and bus lanes. And by it's existance, there is no room for, and therefore no hope for, a superior 'transportation of last resort'. Lets face it: buses suck. They don't come to where you are, or go to where you want to go. You can't 'shop' efficiently, (as you cannot leave items on the bus), you have to carry all you purchases with you. And should we talk about comfort or security? Not that buses are horribly uncomfortable, or all that unsafe - but when you cannot pick or control your co-riders, it is always a concern. Lets ask those people who took your survey if they would prefer to ride the bus, or call a fuel efficent, city sponsered mini-bus/taxi, for about the same price? Slower than a real taxi, but cheaper?

     

  •  01-31-2008, 8:09 PM 2468678 in reply to 2468382

    Re: LTD is a fraud!

    Good topic.  Nothing like a topic to get people thinking and signing up to add thier 2 cents worth!

    I agree that most people don't think of the bus as an alternative.  I also feel that it important that we enable folks without vehicles or those with special needs to have the option of the buses.

    Traffic and costs aren't high enough yet to have an impact, and the roads aren't crowded enough yet.  But I still think LTD is laying the proper groundwork to be ready for that.  And I think it's closer than most people think.    To rush around and try to put things into place when it's badly needed will be too late.  Besides, with the probability that funding will be less in the future, we have to be prepared for the infrastructure changes BEFORE we need them.  Imagine having to try to put the EMX Line in on Franklin Boulevard AFTER the new basketball arena were to go in.  My guess is the university will hog up all it can, and would cry the worst when we had to push back the street to make room for a dedicated line.

    I would actually prefer to see a dedicated line all the way and not the chopped up piecemeal way they did it.  They should have committed to doing it right. 

    As far a buses not being where you want them and when you want them...  I think that if you commit tot he concept of taking the bus, you can plan ahead and adjust your schedule to the system.  Our "I want it now" society expects to be given what they want now.  Yet, we will wait until 8:00 pm precisely to watch our favorite program, or wait in line to see a just-released movie or to get into that new trendy restaurant.  Yes...  when it finally gets too expensive for people to drive by themselves, they seek more efficient and faster means of transportation.  It will become a matter of practical priority.

    A recent letter to the editor made the point that the ridership is up on the EMX route only because the EMX line is free.  That may be partially true, but how many people still have pay and ride the feeder buses to GET to the EMX Stations?  So the funds really are still coming in.  EMX ridership HAS doubled compared the the line it replaced. And people that ride the EMX like it. 

    When fuel tops $5 per gallon and single driver traffic is so bad, LTD will be one of the few areas that we will look like we planned better than anyone else all along. 

    Besides, Eugene isn't interested in improving thier roads anytime soon.  I avoid driving in Eugene at every opportunity because of it.  Springfield, where I live, has it together and the government there has shown courage, insight, and is much better than big brother has across the river.   If you get a chance, compare the two State of the City Address celebrations and speeches.  They are very enlightening as to where the twin cities are headed.

    LTD will continue to expand in Springfield, where it is welcome, and Coburg Road and West 11st will become parking lots soon enough.  And they will get exactly what they deserve for being short-sighted.  Talk about "not in my back yard"!  Eugene has lost the bulk of a hospital, has a tax break sucking manufacturer that is demanding more tax breaks and wants to dump more pollutants in the air, and dowtown is dying off, with huge holes in the ground.  In Springfield, we get a yes vote to improve our downtown, a new hospital, another hospital which will most likely stay in the Springfield/Glenwood area, and a green call center that employes 400 so far and is only 1/2 full. 

    Oh yeah...  And we got round-a-bouts (they really do work, but it's amazing that Springfield would have so many and Eugene just doesn't get it...).

    All of this with a supporting bus system that is ready to take on the growing area that Springfield has become. 

    Close down the West 11th and Coburg routes of LTD (or cut them back, if people aren't riding).  Put the buses where people are riding and feel that LTD is worth it.  THEN watch them complain when they want buses, but they didn't plan ahead enough until it was too late.

    LTD is expanding quickly, and is getting the funding now because they have the forsight to see the future and ask for the funding.  I won't ever say "I told you so" in the next 5 years, but I will enjoy the benefits of living on the right side of the river.

    Great topic, Red.   I hope that more folks join up and give thier input.  My 2 cents is up...

  •  02-07-2008, 7:50 PM 2505609 in reply to 2468678

    Re: LTD is a fraud!

    Transportation of last resort, here!

    After being kicked off the bus some years ago for daring to have a murderous 2" blade pocketknife on my belt......it's transportation of absolute LAST resort.  If I have to have to obey a paranoid dress code to ride....it's hard to get behind the idea.


    An ascendant man, living in a degenerate age, MUST, by definition, live in contradistinction to his times.
  •  02-08-2008, 9:02 AM 2507582 in reply to 2505609

    Re: LTD is a fraud!

    That's a good point Badgerrr.  Anyone with a previous bad experience with LTD is not going to get on board with any plan that they might have.

    I would only submit that times have changed and so has LTD in certain areas.  They have more restrictions in some areas and less in others.  It's a far cry from the 60's, 70's, 80's and even the 90's of riding (I'm partially sad to say that I've ridden the bus in each of those decades - not because I didn't want to ride, but because I'm admitting my age....).

    Luckily, the Eugene City Council doesn't make up the rule book that LTD lives by, so it won't be too crazy or off the wall.

    I believe that any public agency has a long way to go, and LTD is no exception.  But they will listen to ideas and really do want to plan ahead to serve as many people as it can.

  •  02-14-2008, 11:31 PM 2542076 in reply to 2467969

    Re: LTD is a fraud!

    Gooombay:
    redcity8:
    (Yeah, I'm sure there are your usual 4% of eco-zealots that ride tho they don't have to).


    Eco-zealots? You are ignorant. Sorry for trying to keep the air you breath a little cleaner. I have a car, and I admit I drive it a lot due to time constraints of getting to work at a certain time. When my schedule was different, I took the bus every day. Not because I had to, but I wanted to:
    A: Save some money
    B: Not creat so much pollution, and
    C: Not suppor the oil industry

    I hope you aren't one of those people that spits out a new kid every year or 2, because with the way you think, this world is gonna suck.

    People that take the bus pay the same ammount of taxes to help keep the roads in good shape as the idiots that drive around in big trucks and SUVs that do most of the damage to the road. Go move to Texas or something.

    Agreed
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